We are an active, retired couple visiting Millstreet for the second time while staying for a few days at Killarney. I know a great deal about my ancestors, the Leaders, who were from Millstreet, my ancestor owning the Leader house on Clara Mountain which was in a dilapidated state when we visited in 2003. I know of no-one actually living in Millstreet with the Leader name. My third cousin told me that I would be related to all of them there to some degree. I would like to meet some of them to say “hullo.” Way back, the Leaders and the O’Keefes were related as well. Anyone out there doing genealogy? Would you like to make contact?
Margaret Kaiser.
email: 
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Community website for Millstreet, Co. Cork, Ireland
I did too have problems connecting to your site Lorraine…until my computer up ‘n carked it…!!
My new one has no problem connecting though, maybe its some sort of speed issue or something.??
Cheers.
Milton.
Margaret and Marvella were daughters of Thomas Radley jr.son of Thomas of Claragh andMarvella Chinnery.Thomas Radley of Knockraur,married to Margaret Purdon was son of Francis Radley .(Francis was married to Catherine Hall )He was the father of Jane Radley who married John Leader in 1750. Same names tend to confuse the issue.I discovered Francis is a favourite TWISS name
About difficulty of accessing website, I have no idea why. I can always get it.
Lorraine
Len Would not the other example of a claim for rent on inherited property by “Henry Leader ,his wife Mary Leader, alias Radley”(further down page on M.Ls manuscript, indicate that “RADLEY” was her name prior to marriage as was Jane Radley alias Miller?Claragh’s eldest son,George, was the inheritor so he is down on chart “Alias Miller” also.Francis Radley Knockraur married Cath Hall in 1696. That proven.not 1796. As for missing generations, would not Francis have a father, grandfather and gt gfr? taking him up to the first RadleyEstimated date of birth for Francis would be 1665 or so .Father,grandf,gtfthr take him up to first (Thomas????) Radley 1590.I see nothing strange about that. I found a Casey input re Radley. “QUOTE Margaret Purdon, b 1670 mar. Thomas Radley Jr of legal age in 1680 son of Thomas Radley of Knockraur Co Cork probably by his wife Marvella Chinnery Casey XIV UNQUOTE” Thomas Radley married Marg Purdon perhaps around 1730s as he was not born till c.1700 He was son of Francis Radley of Knockraur and Cath Hall . Casey is a bit unreliable . I do not put much faith in it.Interesting too is fact that FRANCIS is a TWISS name. In 1853 Burkes we have Jane TWISS, born estimate 1640s (dtr Richard Twiss and Frances Broderick) marrying a Radley and another Burkes designating that Radley as Francis of Knockraur. I wonder if Burkes made another error. Do you know the name of Francis of Knockraur’s mother?
Lorraine
Lorraine:
You say on July 28th: “Len Would not the other example of a claim for rent on inherited property by “Henry Leader, his wife Mary Leader, alias Radley”(further down page on M.Ls manuscript, indicate that “RADLEY” was her name prior to marriage as was Jane Radley alias Miller?Claragh’s eldest son,George, was the inheritor so he is down on chart “Alias Miller” also”
——-MY ANSWER:
Generally, YES – but not meaning only a “claim for rent on inherited property”. It’s seen in many places such as wills, deeds, any type of documents where the current spouse’s maiden name might be deemed important. The intent may not be of any legal significance at all. You may even find “alias x” on some tombstones. Finding an ‘alias’ such as “MILLER” used by males is very uncommon, especially in Ireland. I don’t recall ever seeing such a usage in the entire Casey series, except for “Radley alias Miller”. If you have, please lt me know. If you are correct, what property are you thinking may be involved?
As late as the early 16th C. in parts of Ireland and Englnd surnames were not yet completly standardized. Wherever Thomas RADLEY, “Alias Miller” came from, occupational surnames may have been used interchangeably, but were dropped within a couple of generations in Irelnd.So, I still must say “Miller” was his trade name.
And, speaking of surnames, someone speculated that LEADER as a surname was of military origin. I looked into that and am quite sure it derives from the Anglo-Saxon “LEDER” or “LEDDER”, found in England along with LEADER. So, originally no doubt leather workers. There is indeed an old song, not too endearing, about the one of the early Millstreet Leaders containing the words “Ye Olde Collier’s Son”.
I’m not sure you got the “Mary” correct though if you’re referring to the Henry Leader, ancestor of th Mt. Leader branch, who d. 1738. He married MARGARET RADLEY in 1689.
Of course, neither Casey, Burke, Michael Leadeer, nor myself are perfect. Example: In Casey several times I’ve seem a female name abbreviated as “Mar.” What are we to make of this short of other confirming evidence? Mary or Margaret??
Fortunately since the Casey series (1950s -1972 approx) tremndous advances in communications and record access have been devloped.
Whatever you have about Maragaret PURDON who married Thomas RADLEY, son of Francis RADLEY of Knockrour by his wife Catherine HALL- LGI, 1958 p. 429;LGI 1904,p. 336. We can say for sure she married Thomas “by 4 April 1726” (Radley/Purdon marr. sett. signed 4 April 1726; “marriage then already solemnized” IRD #94.380.66785). Thomas was born ca. 1700 and his will was proved 7 July 1750.
Len
I said 29 July-: “There is indeed an old song, not too endearing, about the one of the early Millstreet Leaders containing the words “Ye Olde Collier’s Son”.”
That of course is incorrect. There is the song, but “Collier” refers to miners, usually coal miners. An early LEADER of the Millstreet family, apparently was in the mining business. There is also a local tradition of LEATHER business. My gr-gr-grandfather was a cordwainer, but was in contact with relatives in Clare, also involved in mining operations there – maybe copper.
Len
Hi all,
I might add that I’ve seen Henry Leaders wife referred to in different documents & references as Mary, Margaret & Marvella, and as you say, I’d also suspect these are different transcriptions of say Mar or Mar(y)(g) or(v).
“ye olde colliers son” I’d suspect refes to one of Nicholas Philpots sons, as he owned large coal mines in Cork.
Also on a further note I have seen many mistakes in Casey’s versions on different branches of my family, & also one or two in Michael Leaders work, as well as Burkes, BUT there is no doubt that from these most valuable resources we can get the main picture.
Cheers.
Milton.
Liz Kemmis. Re inability to access website. Maybe you made error in URL. It shouldbe bigpondhosting not bigpondPOSTING.as you have written in your note. Lorraine
Len You have the Michael Leader chart. You should be able to pick it up from there. Or I guess we go thru Francis R’s son Thomas /mar to Marg.Purdon down to Jane R mar to John Leader.Then Marg.Radley/John LeaderMD down thru Keale side. Present day Keale side all go up to Francis Radley.5xgt gfr., and Claragh’s being cousins. You did say ALL the Radleys and Leaders were cousins. Who was Francis Radleys mother. Do you know?
Len I should also have added, If Jane Twiss (dtr of Richard Twiss (1610/82) was born approx 1640s, as estimated by marriage of parents 1632) who arrived Ire. 1640s according to Burkes, then she JANE TWISS would have been really underage to have mar.Thomas of Claragh in 1640 (as the date you stated in one post). I do not know of any other Jane TWISS ?efore 1640s., unless the English Twiss’ have a Jane arriving inIreland to specifically marry Thomas of Claragh in 1640. Just a thought.
Hi Len I quoted verbatim from ML manuscript re H.Leader and wife.No doubt you are rightabout Mary being Margaret. . At least 3 of my great gfrs owned mills, no ref to Miller there.(I can name them), circa 16/17cent.Interesting that you say Leader is an Anglo/Saxon LEDDER..Leather Workers. Gives credence to Milton’s Leaders in England being Leather Workers or Tanners. Now , regarding lineage,you have read my website so you know who my ancestors are, and you left a message on Guestbook, which is still there. …. Can you produce a JANE TWISS who was born 1620/25 who would have married Thomas of Claragh b.1610 & married 1640?The JANE TWISS of Birdhill was born estimated on fathers marriage in 1632 around 1640s,There was no other Jane Twiss in Kerry at that time that I know of. That leaves Jane marrying Francis of Knockraur. Why would he marry a woman 20/25 years older than himself (Do not tell me it was for money or property). As you say Burkes often makes mistakes likewise Casey.I think Jane Twiss was Francis Radley’s mother rather than his wife. Dates fit, Francis is an unusual name in Radley family, but not in Twiss. Francis Radley is ggfather of most early Radley and Leader children and down to present day If we accept that XXXRadley of Bandon(English Protestant settler) is progenitor of Radleys of Cork,( and as he was only English Radley around Bandon at that time 1590) then he is of Leaders also, along with (prob.Henry) Leader, Cromwellian supporter. I am only interested in early Leaders as the latter day ones are fairly well recorded.Radleys, of course, are my main interest,although our lines run together.
Lorraine
Lorraine-:
I didn’t say JANE TWISS (dau.of Richard Twiss) was born approx 1640. She must have MARRIED Thomas of Claragh ABOUT 1640 or maybe as late as 1650-1655; you said you got that 1640 unlikely birth date from Burke, 1853 Edn. What I said was as follows:
“I am in agreement that Thomas RADLEY “of Claragh” was born ca. 1610; he was known as “Alias Miller” and was living in 1680; I have his estimated marriage date to Jane TWISS as ca. 1640.”
If you have a marriage date of 1632 for Jane’s parents that would bring her marriage date to the mid-1650s. Can you reference that date? Check the marriage dates for several of her children which I sent based on my RADLEY of CLARAGH & KNOCKROUR. The chronology is fine if her marriage date is adjusted to mid-1650s.
I found un-referenced note (sorry!) that mentions another daughter of Frank TWISS & Jane Parsons -: ALICIA TWISS married — MacMAHON” of Co. Clare”.
Based on the other siblings I would say that Alicia would have been born ca. 1640.
Len
Len I did not say you reported that Jane Twiss was married in 1640. I said that. Point out the posting where you said that, so I canre-read contents. I maintain that there is credible evidence that JANE TWISS was mother,not the wife, of Francis Radley of Knockraur, and as you said, no one is perfect, not even …Burkes or Casey. I also maintain XXX RADLEY of 1590 is the original person who started this family. Do you have evidence to dispute this? Lorraine
Lorraine-:
Here is what I said in my lengthy post of July 26th about Jane Twiss -:
“I am in agreement that Thomas RADLEY “of Claragh” was born ca. 1610; he was known as “Alias Miller” and was living in 1680; I have his estimated marriage date to Jane TWISS as ca. 1640.”
You say you said that; but I did. Subsequently, if you could reference your source for the 1632 (book, page number??) for her parents marriage, I said I am perfectly agreeable that she could have more likely married in the mid-1550s.
Francis Radley of Knockrour did not marry anyone other than Catherine Hall in 1796, that anyone knows of. No evidence I’ve seen suggests that, but rather confirm only Catherine Hall as his wife.
As I’ve mentioned, my descent from the RADLEYs would be thru Leonard Leader of Keale & Stakehill by a second marriage to a CHINNERY woman. Thus from Leonard’s father, John Leader of Keale by his wife, Jane, dau. of Thomas RADLEY of Knockrour by his wife, Margaret PURDON. Without checking your line from your webpage, which is difficult to follow, I would say we are 4th cousins, maybe a degree removed or so. Of course with multiple common ancestors there would be multiple cousinships.
I would suggest that you put all your info together in chart form, as I have done with mine, and post it with clearcut references and showing linkages to the several lines you are interested in. That would make it a lot easier to follow. Of course I agree we are all free to post and discuss anything relevent, but I feel these exchanges are getting tedious for many and there really is no need to rehash details that you already seem to have on your web site and which I have researched long ago. Do you have a genealogy program? I use ‘Family Tree Maker’ which is most useful and easy to use.
Len
Thanks Lorraine and everyone the Radleys of Cork website working fine now so maybe there was an issue with the overal site hoster. Thanks for all your comments and assistance.
Hello Now, I can understand your mystification. WHERE and WHEN did I state that JOHN RADLEY of KNOCKRAUR.The ALIAS MILLER is referred to in wife’s paper as his wife’s name. Please point out the posting. I looked back and did not see it.You asked for evidence, are we not allowed to use Burkes reference as to Jane Radley of Knockraur having a father called JOHN RADLEY OF KNOCKRAUR? or speculate on who our ancestors might be?I have seen much more questionable ancestors on other charts, in fact some are downright laughable. and I might politely point out we are free to discuss the Radleys and Leaders with anyone on this forum., What is your connection to Radleys?
See you later
Lorraine http://www.radleysofcork.bigpondhosting.com Australia
Len….Tracked down that posting. 21st July. QUOTE “Incidentally Janes marriage is in Burkes under Morragh P 866 stating she was daughter of JOHN RADLEY.UNQUOTE. The next part read” The alias Miller is referred to in papers by his wifes name”. Meaning no reference to JOHN RADLEY. Should have made it a different paragraph.Perhaps a little unclear. I shall try to be a better typiste next time. Lorraine
The Irish Genealogical Research Society has a Leader pedigree in it’s library in London. Their webpage does not mention that they also hold the Leader Collection of pedigrees. Their library is only open on Saturday afternoons (by appointment only) as it is manned by volunteers. I don’t know if they would copy or transcribe the pedigree for you if you weren’t able to visit. They might ask you to join the Society(25 euro per year).
Rosaleen:
That’s good to know. Originally Michael was to bequeathe his documents elsewhere, but expressed concerns about security. Glad to learn where they are. Possibly the IGRS has or could prepare a viewable index. There could well be items there that would also be of help to some related families. Thank you.
Len
It looks like a subscription cost 20 pounds……if I’m correct.
It would cost a fortune to hire a good researcher. They do not undertake any work for you.I was a member.
Lorraine
You may be interested to know that the Leader family are said to have arrived with Cromwell to West Cork and were the major landowners around Keale near Millstreet and lived in Keale Manor which was burnt during the war of independence. The Irish census for 1901 and I think 1911 are now on line and you’ll find the last of the Leader family living in the big house in Keale (probably Keale Managh rather than Keale North or Keale South.
They are the only protestant family in the area. The local O’Sullivans long since departed fortuitously benefited from the patronage (knowing or otherwise) of the Leader family. I very much doubt that any Leader has lived in the area since the 1920s.
Hi, I’ve started looking into my Leaders in Christchurch NZ.
I have birth and death records of George Leader, my great grand father, who died under chloroform aged 27 in 1924(at the dentist I think). His parents were John Leader and Bridget (nee McCarthy) who lived at Cashel St., Linwood.
Thanks to the wonderful “Papers Past” website I have found a little bit of unsavory info on this couple. In 1876 John was charged with assaulting his wife. She’s sounds like she could give just as well as she got and was also charged several times with drunkenness and abuse of her husband.
On a more positive note, my Grandfather, Vernon Leader, is still the oldest man to have completed the Grand Traverse of Mt Cook which he did at the age of 63!
Anyway, I know these Leaders are my Leaders and I’m interested in a bit of an outline of their route to New Zealand. My late mother, Maurneen (nee Leader) did a bit of research and even visited Millstreet at one stage. Can some one help?
regards, John Collie.
Hello John! Welcome ro the Leader discussion. My 3rd Cousin, Margaret (Leader) Kaiser, started the discussions. We both have done a lot of Leader research on your/our branch. I have a very brief lineage for your own line provided mainly by my cousin Margaret – so most would appear to be what she gleaned verbally from her family members back in the 1970s
I see your mother’s name, “Maurneen who m. — Graham, of Dunedin” and they had “four children”. I also note that your grandfather was “John Vernon Leader” (though he may have gone by the name Vernon). According to the pedigree I have, he was a son of William George Leader “of Canterbury, Christchurch, NZ, who was born “14 November 1886; died 1913, age 27”. He also apparently was known by his middle name, George. So, his age at death coincides with your info but as Cuz Margaret supplied an exact birth date it probably came from a certificate and 1913 seems most likely.
As for the “unsavory” info, it’s unfortunate that these are often
recorded in public records, leaving the nice things to imagination! In many cases these are “he said/she said” type allegations which may not reflect the true picture.
I think Margaret is monitoring this Millstreet blog though I haven’t heard from her for awhile. I will email her and hope we all can compare notes and add to what we already know about trhe Leaders, which is considerable.
Cheers, Len Keane
(also your Cousin, in Massachusetts)
Does anyone know how to contact John Collie of Dunedin, New Zealand? I am his 2nd cousin.
Hi Margaret, call me at the Christchurch City Council.
John
Again welcome John, (son of Maurneen and Graham of Dunedin) this is from your 2nd cousin this time, Margaret (Leader) Kaiser, 3rd cousin to Len Keane. I would like to make contact with you and will look here for any message from you. I remember your parents and grandparents quite well although I live up in Christchurch. Your great grandmother was Ethel May Leader, the mother of your grandfather. Are you just starting this branch or do you have more information? I was truly surprised when Len wrote to me!
For Leader researchers…..An article on direct descendents of HENRY LEADER of Saffron Walden,Essex, (likely ancestors of Cork Leaders) is on our website Radleys of Cork. Page Radley/Leader/Lindsey) It is placed down a bit from article on Richard Leader, IronWorks Mgr.under aerial photo of Keale House
Lorraine(Radley) Egan Australia.
For interested Leader Researchers. See updated Leader/Radley/Twiss info. on Radleys of Cork website (Radleys 1590 page).Sources given (and dates)..
Lorraine Egan
Harking back to Len’s post of 29th July re poor transcriptions in Burke, O’Casey et al, this all goes back to sloppy record keeping of church records. Mary and Margaret were regularly abbreviated to Mar., and even looking at the actual records, it is often very difficult to distinguish between Mary and Margt. between the abbreviations and the handwriting.
Rosaleen
Rosaleen:
I am in complete agreement with your comments on “sloppy record keeping of church records.” If you have ever examined the original Catholic records of Castleisland, Co. Kerry, you will know what I mean. Dr. Casey reportedly had to make three separate copies to be sure some of them were correct. The church does have transcribed copies available and accessible to visitors to the Parish. My advice would be to check Casey’s published version, as well as what is recorded at the church, and compare with verifiable family knowledge. This would apply to any original Irish church records.
Here is what I said in my lengthy post of July 26th to Lorraine about Jane Twiss; I note that I MADE A TYPO at the very end! -:
“I am in agreement that Thomas RADLEY “of Claragh” was born ca. 1610; he was known as “Alias Miller” and was living in 1680; I have his estimated marriage date to Jane TWISS as ca. 1640……I said I am perfectly agreeable that she could have more likely married in the mid-1550s.” – L.K.
BUT, the last stated marriage date should read -: “…she (Jane Twiss) could have more likely married in the MID-1650s.”
So, we all should be aware how anyone can make an error, and reflect on how such a mistake made prior to computers, and even typewriters, might easily go uncorrected or even un-noticed – and taken as literal fact many years or centuries later.
Finally, I cannot find Lorraine’s current web site. Does anyone know the URL address for her Radley site??
Len Keane
This is why I question whether Henry Leader who died in 1738 married Mary/Margaret/ or Marvella RADLEY. All these names carry on in later generations, so it is a bit impossible to know exactly what her name was. Different references have different names….it is probable therefore that these references were trancribed differently. Mar. for example transcribed as any of these.
Cheers.
Milton.
Hello all in Millstreet, especially the Kellehers. I am wondering if anyone who attended the morning tea with the Shannon Family group who visited Millstreet on 24th August this year had since learned any more about family stories of a Katherine Kelleher who went to Australia in 1830-1840. We were hoping that someone might have a family story of an aunt, cousin, sister, daughter etc who left Ireland from around the Millstreet, Macroom, Boherbui area.
I hope all are well and that the winter is not too severe for you.
Rhyl
You all probably know of this, but, google Abandonded Ireland Mt leader Spectacular views of ruins of Mt Leader house. Sad that there are so many neglected ruins in Ireland.
L.Egan
Hey there, my name is Frank Leader, grandson of Dr Leo Leader (Millstreet, Cullen) who is alive and well at 94. We live in Rosnalea, Boherbue – my father is the local GP Dr Len Leader. Hope that helps; I am an emergency doctor in New Zealand at the moment!
Hello Mary Leader here, I am related to the Leaders of Mount Leader and the Keale branch. My father Leonard is stii alive at 94. He was born in Cullen and lives in Boherbue a few miles away where he worked as a family doctor for 40 years. His son Len is still Gzp there . Mary leader <email>
Hi Frank! Fancy you being Down Under – in New Zealand, that is! I live in Christchurch and have sent a short email to your aunt (I presume) Mary Leader. She has my email address if you want to make contact. I was amazed that your grandfather is still alive at 94! I visited him in Boherbue and he talked about Rosnalee. You were from one marriage going back 2 or 3 generations and I came down from another marriage! Have a great Kiwi Christmas experience!
Hi there – only seeing this message now from 10 years ago. Hope all is well in New Zealand, I now live in Cork City one hour from Boherbue. Leo Leader passed away in 2014 but has an expanding brood of great-grandchildren: my brother Leonard will have his first child in a few days and, if it’s a boy, you are looking at yet another Leonard Leader in a long line… Leo’s wife Irene is still alive and well and will turn 100 this year. She lives in Dublin with my auntie Helen but periodically comes to Boherbue for a change of scenery!
All the best,
Frank
Hi Frank and Mary.
Could I possibly ask who Leonard’s father was?
If you would like to keep this more private I can be reached at <email>
Thanks.
Milton.
Leonard my brother, Frank’s father was born in 1950. His father Leo (Leonard) was born in 1918 and is still alive, a retired family doctor. His father, also Leonard, was one of the Leaders of Keale. My mother is much more up to date than I am if you have further questions I will pass them on to her Kind Regards Mary Leader
I just found out that my mother was born in Millstreet in about 1914. The family of James O´Mahoney immigrated to the United States in 1926. Are there still a lot of O´mahoney´s in Millstreet?
I would be grateful for any information.
hi oweena, there’s lots of O’Mahony’s in Millstreet these days
Thank-you so much for this information. I know my mother´s sister Eileen did not immigrate to the US. She had a daughter-Annette who was killed in an auto accident with her fiance in 1960?? I am planning to be in Ireland in May and would like to meet some of these O´Mahoney´s. maybe i can connect through this web site??
Thanks and have a great Christmas.
Oweena
Leader/Radley/Twiss info…………………………………….. Thomas(?) Radley, arrived 1590 Bandon b.Englishman. is progenitor of Radley/Leader family .Leaders were brought into Radley family by marriage of Thomas Radley(son of Thomas R. of Claragh, 8th gtgfr) and Marvella Chinnery producing Margaret and Marvella who went on to marry 2 Leader brothers. The two girls were first cousin to my 5th gtgfather FRANCIS RADLEY, esq, KNOCKRAUR. Jane Radley,dtr of Thomas Radley & granddaughter of Francis Radley married John Leader.of Keale approx 1733. George Radley/MARY TWISS b.1645 Shropshire She was dtr Richard Twiss /Jane X of Shropshire, England. Richard Twiss did not arrive in Ireland until after 1650s as Land Agent.
Tree THOMAS RADLEY arrived Bandon 1595 b.maybe 1575 8th gt gfr
THOMAS RADLEY CLARAGH b. 1610(?) mar.JANE X (WIDOW) 7th gt gfr
GEORGE RADLEY married MARY TWISS b.1645 Shropshire dtr of RICHARD TWISS 6th ggfr
FRANCIS RADLEY b.1670/75 md Cath.Hall in 1696 5th gt g.
4.Richard Radley. 3 RICHARD RADLEY. 2.THOMAS RADLEY 1.RICHARD HENRY RADLEY, JULIUS FRANCIS RADLEY gfather, ELIZABETH RADLEY, mother.
Present day LEADERS OF KEALE all follow direct line with me thru Radleys.
Lorraine Egan Australia
An interesting Radley/Leader connection Source..India Office Family History Soc. RECORD DETAILS NAME JOHN RADLEY LEADER
EVENT DEATH
DATE 10th April, 1906
LOCATION AHMEDNAGAR INDIA
STATUS LT. 2/CONNAUGHT RANGERS
Transcribed by British Library
Lorraine(Radley/Leader) Egan Australia
b. 4 September 1880, Son of Richard Radley LEADER b. 1851
Cheers.
Milton.
LEADER information taken from CORK EXAMINER: SOUTH AMERICA 22/11/1868
1868 Mr.Leader, ( son of Henry Leader and Maria Miller, gson Nicholas Philpot Leader and nephew of member for Cork,) was murdered in his own house(South America) after returning from FREY BENTOS after delivering livestock. His house was robbed and ransacked No perpetrators have been apprehended…
Lorraine Egan
Hello Lorraine:
The man murdered in S. America is also recorded in Burke, “Irish Family Records” (Amer. Ed.), p. 702. -:
Henry, murdered in S. America 22 August 1868, was 2nd son of Henry (Leader) of Clonmoye, Co. Cork, b. 1815; he m. 1st 14 June 1841, Maria Winifred (d. 14 Oct 1862), dau. of John Bermingham Miller, Q.C.: Henry (b. 1815) was 3rd aon of Nicholas Philpot Leader, who m. 2 November 1807 Margaret (d. 8 Oct 1858), dau. & c-heiress of of Andrew Nash, of Nashville or Rosnalee, Co. Cork and d. 7 Feb 1836.
I’m sure this entry is also found in some other editions of Burke’s “Landed Gentry of Ireland”, etc.
Len Keane
Hi all,
Its been a long time for dialogue so I thought I would add a little something: A local historican in Aghabullogue suggested that the above Jane Radley alias “Miller” could be a mis-spelling of the name “Milner.” The Milner family came, I think, to Bandon a little later than the Radleys but were there during the time in question.
The Barry family of Kilgobbin and Hanover Hall married into the Milner family (1767 – James Barry to Joanna Milner daughter of William Milner of Dunmanway) and so became the Milner-Barrys (Burke’s 1958, pp., 58). In 1803 Richard Radley of Knockrour married Mary Milner-Barry (Burke’s 1958, pp., 58). In Michael Leader’s document “Radleys of County Cork,” he specifies that the groom was Richard Francis Radley , but records the name Mary Barry from the way it is presented in the Aghabullogue parish registers (8).
Hi Glen.. Re Jane Miller(??) Radley married to Thomas Radley, Claragh. I can’t add anything to that theory other than Thomas and Jane Miller(??) Radley were our great grandparents x times. Richard Twiss(who was married twice) and his second wife JANE (,married 1642) both born in Shropshire are also our great grandparents x times. Their only daughter MARIE(born 1645 in Shropshire) married George Radley esq. circa 1665/75. .. First wife of Richard T.
was SARA who died 1640 The present day LEADERS of KEALE also have these people as great grandparents, through Radley line.Research done in conjunction with John Speake of Cambridge,who has direct descent from Robert Twiss and Alice Speake, also Shropshire Parish Registers, Wills etc. Lorraine
Lorraine & Others_
I’ve reviewed some of the later posts on this Millstreet blog. I must still disagree on the “alias Miller” designation as applied to Thomas Radley of Claragh, Co. Cork and his eldest son, George Radley. In this usage it does not apply to a wife, nor is that suggested in any other contemporary source on the Cork Radleys that I’ve seen. That was merely speculated by the late Michael Leader.
What Michael may have missed in his own notes supports my conclusion. Mr. Leader cited an Exchequer suit dated 11 June 1679 involving a John CHINNERY and Thomas RADLEY vs. Richard TERRY and describes Thomas RADLEY as “alias MILLER of Claragh”. The matter in dispute involved barrel staves which CHINNERY and RADLEY had contracted to “supply from their woods to Terry.” It’s clear that Thomas Radley was proprietor of a wood MILL. – thus the use of a trade name. His eldest son, George, most likely inherited the business and used the trade name as well.
If there is any other evidence bearing on the adoption of the ‘alias Miller” – perhaps in England – I would love to know about it. It would be strong evidence to link the family to a certain place in England.
As for the identity of the wife of Thomas Radley alias Miller, the following from Burke LG, Vol. II, 1850 Ed., page 1445 (TWISS), reads “Richard Twiss, a near relative of Herbert, Lord Powis, who went to that country (i.e. Ireland- LK) as his lordship’s agent towards the end of the reign of Charles I (1625 to 1649 – LK) , and lived as such in the castle of Castle Island, Co. Kerry. He married Fanny or Frances BRODERICK, and had a daughter, JANE, married to — RADLEY, Esq., and four sons… the eldest son Frank Twiss, Esq. married Jane PARSONS and had (with two daughters, Alicia m. to McMahon, Esq. of Co. Clare; and MARY-ANNE m. to — (George -LK) RADLEY, Esq.), a son…..
The 5th son of Frank TWISS was Richard who married 2 July 1756 Elizabeth, dau. of Thomas RADLEY, Esq., of Co. Cork.
Thus, this article shows three RADLEY/TWISS marriages in three generations. This is all chronologically correct. I can clarify more if needed.
Len
Anyone who is interested in Twiss/Radley/Leader connection, or more importantly, TWISS, please read Herbert Correspondence, letters to Lord Chirbury.In index (to save your time) there are 29 notes or letters concern ing Twiss family. Edward Herbert, 3rd Lord Chirbury, sent his cousin Thomas Herbert of Breconshire Wales over to Castleisland in 1655 He was just one of series of Land Agents, including Twiss. Richard Twiss was born in Fitz, Shropshire in 1609(son of a farmer). His first wife was Sara who had a son Robert b1636, Sara died and is validated as wife of R.T in English Parish Burial registers ” Sara,wife of Richard Twiss died 1640″He then married JANEin 1642 (who is validated as his wife(widow) about 1682 in letter to L.Chirbury re drop in rent for farm at Killinterna.Letters 487 and 604.
His children with Jane Twiss ,his wife, were Richard,1643, MARIE 1645 and George 1650 (all on Fitz Registers). Birth of George is on Fitz registers so Twiss did not go to Kerry until after 1650.We must thank Thomas Cromwell (Henry VIII’s secretary) for instigating the marvellous English Parish Registers circa 1538 which enable us to research confidently. As to Frank Twiss he is most likely Richard’s grandson rather than his son. Also Frank had a son Martyn whose son Richard married Eliz Radley 1757 circa.making Richard Frank’s grandson. Any verified Birth,Marriage and Death dates re Fanny?
Hi – I hope I’m not crashing your site as I think I’m from a different branch, but maybe someone can help.
I am planning on going to Millstreet in September 2013 and would like to try and find some Leaders, if any are still in the area. I am descended from Lionel Frederick LEADER born in 1870 in Millstreet, Cork, Ireland (Mount Leader House). He died in 1939. He married Mabel Campbell ROWLEY.
Mabel Campbell ROWLEY and Lionel Frederick LEADER had the following children:
i. Eustace Lionel LEADER born between October-December 1898 in Wirral, Cheshire, England.
ii. Robert LEADER
iii. Marvella Hilda LEADER (my maternal grandmother)
Lionel’s was the second son of Henry Eustace LEADER (son of Henry LEADER and Elizabeth Anne EUSTACE) born in 1833, and died on 01 June 1876, and Helen Augusta WILLIAMSON. His older brother Henry Williamson Leader (b.1869) would have inherited Mount Leader. Then what? Anyone have any more info on what happened after Henry Williamson Leader inherited in 1876? He would only have been about 7 years old! Thanks in advance.
Hello! My grandpa (Nicholas) is the son of Eustace Lionel Leader, so the same branch as you 🙂 The family lore, as my grandpa tells it, is that one of the brothers (Henry Williamson or Lionel Frederick, I suppose) gambled away the house while the other was serving in India… but that is totally unsubstantiated! I’m as curious as you, and would love to know more information about how the house passed out of the possession of the Leaders. Does anyone know anything else about this?
Jenny Byers. Today I received email from a woman in South Africa regarding her Gma Marvella Hilda Leader. If you wish email me at <email> and I will pass on message and name. As to your branch see Burkes Irish Family Records 1976 page 701.
Lorraine Egan
Hi,
I am related to this branch of Leaders.
My GGGG Gfather Nicholas Leader came to Australia in 1837 with his family from Tullig.
The Tullig Leaders are related to the Mt Leader crowd via Nicholas’s Grandfather Henry Leader who married Christabella Philpot, who was also father of William Leader, the ancestor of the later Mt Leader family.
Interestingly a Henry Eustace Leader turns up in Queensland Australia and marries in 1895, but I can’t work out how he fits in.
Cheers.
Milton.
NZ.
Thanks Milton. Am new to all this and very slowly putting it all together. Seems like there’s a lot of info pre-1860 or so, but not so much after that (at least on my line), but it is beginning to come together and via another source have traced a bit of info on Henry Williamson Leader and have been given some info on my great uncles, Eustace Lionel Leader and Robert Leader.
All the best,
Jenny
Hi Jenny,
I have heaps of info on the Leaders and would be happy to swap.
My email address is <email>
William Leader bought Mt Leader from his cousin Edward Leader & his son John after they became heavily encumbered.
This was the eldest son line from Henry Leader who married Margaret Radley. This Henry was a brother of John Leader who started the Keale branch of Leaders.
Cheers.
Milton.
Hello! Would you mind clarifying this at all: “William Leader bought Mt Leader from his cousin Edward Leader & his son John after they became heavily encumbered.” When was this? I had thought that the property was still owned by the Frederick Lionel / Henry Williamson branch until the early 1900s. Thank you!
Jenny Byers Received your note. Sent reply to your sister Deborah. Lorraine Egan
Cullen GAA history refers to the 1936 and 1939 teams which won the Duhallow Junior football championship.A team member was Leo leader who played with Cullen in both winning teams.
That is my grandfather who is still alive at 95 and doing very well! He lives in Boherbue.
Hello Frank:
I’m another cousin of yours but it goes back a ways. We have a common ancestor in Leonard Leader (b. ca. 1763; d. 2 Dec 1845)of Keale & Stakehill. who married three times.
You descend from his first wife Mary Tarrant and I from a second wife, a Chinnery woman from Mallow. This according to a detailed account from the late Daniel Guerin of Coolclogher, Boherbue, who, as a boy of about 12, actually knew Ben Leader of Stakehill (b. 1815), youngest son of Leonard. Their mutual interest was genealogy.
Leonard’s third wife (1785 per Marr. Lic. Bond; not 1795 as the Burke volumes say) was Sarah White. Most if not all of the persons in the Burke ‘Landed Gentry’ volumes descend from the third marriage.
My great-grandparents were John Keane and Elizabeth Leader, dau. of Henry Leader of Doonmore & later Keale, and his wife, Mary Tarrant (not to be confused with your Mary Tarrant but clearly close relatives).
I recall very well visiting your grandparents in 1973 and meeting your grand-parents and aunts, Mary and Anne. I’m glad to hear they’re doing well. Your grand-father may have inherited that Tarrant gene for longevity! My Mary Tarrant’s father was ‘Old’ Dick Tarrant who died on Christmas day 1889 at a party while doing a jig, well over the 105 age on his death certificate, considering birth dates of his known chiildren and separate accounts that he rode a horse to a funeral at age 110!!
My wife, Mary, and children John Leader Keane (III) and Mary also had an enjoyable visit with your grandparents in April of 1990.
I have all of your genealogy back to Leonard (b. 1763) and beyond,
much provided by your grandfather and/or confirmed by others, plus records. Let me know what you may need.
Please say ‘Hello’ to your family and best wishes to all.
Len Keane
Ref. my post of today-: CORRECTION
The following statement is incorrect and extraneous to this discussion, and should be omitted. It refers to Leonard’s brother, John Leader-: “(per Marr. Lic. Bond; not 1795 as the Burke volumes say)”. Burke made a mistake and so did I in mis-reading a chart where had I corrected it!
My earlier post should say at that point -:
“Leonard’s third wife was Sarah White. whom he married ca. 1796”
Len
Hi Len,
Would you believe, only seeing this now, 9 years later. Seems like our common ancestor was fond of being married!
So interesting to see you visited in 1973 and again in 1990. Leo Leader of Boherbue passed away in 2014 but Irene his wife, my grandmother, is still alive and will be 100 this year. Mary and Anne are both alive and well and living in Dublin (you might see some of Mary’s comments on this forum further up).
I would actually be very interested in the genealogy if you have it. As my grandfather Leo said, you become more interested in theses things as you get older! Where are you living now Len?
Regards (and apologies for delayed correspondence!)
Frank Leader
RE RADLEY/LEADER
Glen Paul Hammond has written a book on “RADLEYS OF KNOCKRAUR”. This if freely available on Family Search (L.D.S) library. Also same will be available on AMAZON soon.Glen is direct descendent of FRANCIS RADLEY of Knockraur,Cork and further back to first RADLEY who arrived Bandon 1590. Leaders first intermarried with Radleys around mid 1600s.
Lorraine (Radley) Egan
Thomas Ellis born c.1745 in the West Indies. His Father was Nicholas Ellis, mother Mary, maiden name unknown. Nicholas was from Sickamore in the Barony of Fermoy and County Corke, Parish of Doneraile, Ireland. Mary died in the West Indies before 1752. Nicholas most likely remarried. Does anyone have information on Thomas and his father Nicholas? Would it be possible to get their Wills?
Hi Peter, I have ancestors Nicholas & Thomas Ellis from Doneraile, Co. Cork. Mine definitely had an association with the name “Cicamore” (Sycamore) but dates do not match up with the ones you provide. There is a West Indian connection also as my Thomas (4x great-grandfather) had a son Thomas who served is a lieutenant in the 2nd West India Regiment of Foot. This Thomas is buried at Fort Augusta, Jamacia after been killed in 1808 by his own troops who mutinied. From memory, I believe Nicholas might have served in the Royal Navy. He was born about 1735 and he married Arabella Cranfield. Nicholas died Doneraile 1783. His son Thomas born about 1760 died 1828 married Eliza Screech. Their son Thomas born about 1782 died 1808 in Jamaica. You might be interested in an article “The Ellis Family of Millstreet” by historian Peter Berresford Ellis – http://aubanehistoricalsociety.org/aubane_collection/millstreet_consider.pdf
The Nicholas Ellis that was in the West Indies married a Mary Stewart, a widow abt. 1743(she was a Widow twice first Frith then Stewart) and left his wife Mary and three children Mary, Elizabeth and Thomas behind 1749. The three children were born between 1743 and 1749. Nicholas Ellis most likely born about <1720 and probably remarried Arabella Cranfield. Nicholas first wife Mary (I assume) died 1752. I know also that Nicholas Ellis was still alive and living at Sickamore in 1771 because his son Thomas stated so in a 1771 document. Thomas was in the West Indies until at least 1778 and thereafter no records of him or his son or wife. He had a son born 1775 with a wife Mary. Is there records confirming dob's or are these dates guesstimates? It is my belief that Thomas Ellis son of Nicholas Ellis travelled back and forth from Ireland to the West Indies when he came of age and then finally moved to Ireland and would have moved during the American Revolution 1778 – 1783. His last record was in a 1778 list of Militia men, along with his brother-in-laws Leonard Bowles and Jerimiah Newton.
By and large, the dates were all from the research of Peter Berresford Ellis. The 1761 dob for Thomas may be incorrect because he supposedly married Eliza Screech in 1773 which is unlikely at the age of 12 (or maybe the date of marriage is wrong). The Royal Navy fact came from some notes made by my 2x great uncle who also mentioned Nicholas’ father or maybe it was grandfather, Thomas Ellis, was a priest. A Thomas Ellis was made the curate of Doneraile in 1693, the same year he married a Sarah Funesy. I believe Sarah Funesy was the sister-in-law of Capt. Nicholas Green of Carker House, Doneraile. Carker House adjoins a townland called Sycamore. Thomas Ellis had an Inn in Doneraile and another in Millstreet. His home in Millstreet he named “Sycamore”. Capt Nicholas Green had a joint tenancy over the Carker lands with a John Eyre. “Eyre” is a middle name that has been passed down generations in my family.
Peter, it is entirely possible that we are talking about the same Nicholas & Thomas though I do have some reservations. Thomas had three daughters but none of them were named “Mary” yet one of them was named “Arabella”. My guess is that Thomas’ mother was Arabella Cranfield and not Mary Stewart. But none of these doubts explain away the Sycamore connection – https://www.townlands.ie/cork/fermoy/doneraile/doneraile/sycamore/
See below Nicholas Ellis Document:
Whereas Nicholas Ellis late of the town of Nassau in the island of New Providence and now of Sickamore in the Barony of Fermoy & County Corke and Parish of Doneraile Gent.,” at the time of his leaving said island of New Providence the year of our lord One Thousand Seven Hundred and Forty-Nine was seized and possessed of one plantation in said island commonly called Mr. Samuel Frith’s Plantation containing seven hundred acres situate in the Eastern limits of said island(and was captain of the Eastern Company of Militia in said island) adjoining the sea, said Ellis having obtained the same in ffee by marriage with his wife Mary Ellis otherwise Frith the same being left or devised to the said Mary in ffee by her first husband Samuel Frith Privie Councell of said Island by his last will and testament and afterwards by her second Husband Collonel Samuel Steward of said Island by hist last will and Testament and whereas said Nicholas Ellis was also seized in ffee at same time of a lot of ground two thirds whereof said Nicholas Ellis purchased from Collonel William Steward executor of his said Brother Samuel Steward deceased on which said Ellis built several houses situated in the said town of Nassau and was also at y time possessed of several negroes both men and women and children and an Indian woman and her children and several household goods plate and furniture all which said Nicholas Ellis left in the care and possession of said wife the said Mary Ellis until his return to said Island in Trust for him the said Nicholas Ellis and whereas said Mary dyed in or about the month of July one thousand seven hundred and fifty three and before her death committed the said plantation, lott of ground, slaves and effects to the charge of Captain Nehemiah Dunscombe and Captain Samuel Green both of the aforesaid town of Nassau in Trust for the said Nicholas Ellis or for Thomas Ellis, Mary Ellis and Elizabeth Ellis children to the said Nicholas and Mary and whereas said Nehemiah Dunscomb and said Samuel Green are both dead and before their death possessed themselves or their representatives received the issues and profits thereof and whereas the said Nicholas Ellis is still intitled to the said plantation Lott of ground slaves and effects and profits and issues thereof
Now know all men that I the said Nicholas Ellis now of Sickamore in the Parish of Doneraile Barony of Fermoy County, of Corke and Kingdome of Ireland Gent. Have made ordained constituted and appointed and by these presents do hereby make ordain constitute and appoint John Gambier and Thomas Ellis my son both of the town of Nassau and Island of New Providence aforesaid Gent. My true and lawfull attorneys in this behalf to ask demand and receive of and from the representatives of the said Nehemiah Dunscomb and Samuel Green the possessions of my said herein recited several plantation Lot of ground slaves and effects and to enter thereof as also the rents issues and profits thereof and every part thereof since the decease of my said wife to perfect and give such receipts acquittances and discharges for the same as they shall think necessary and on refusal of the said possessions and the said rents issues and profits as aforesaid I do hereby authorize and impowered my said attorneys to take such lawfull steps by suit or otherwise in my name as they shall be advised for the same and for the recovery thereof hereby ratifying and confirming what my said attorney’s shall do in this behalf witness whereof I have hereunto set my hand and seal in the city of Corke and Kingdome of Ireland this thirtieth day of September 1766. Signed sealed and delivered (signed) Nicholas Ellis in presence of us.
(signed) Wm. Parks Mayor
Recorded from the original
The 10th January 1769
P Wm. Hutchinson Sec.
Hello,
I was wondering if anyone on this forum can shed any light my Mother’s ancestors please?
She tells me that her Mother (Elizabeth Leader) was from Mill Street Co.Cork. Not sure of the full picture but my Mother moved to another area of Co.Cork when she was young and was raised with another family. She doesn’t really have any recollection of either of her parents. My Mother’s Father was Michael Bransfield from Middleton.
=====
admins’s note:
She was from Carriganima. Details of her family are in the article Elizabeth Leader, Carriganima/Mashanaglas
My name is Andrew Holt and I am a son of Frances Patience Leader, dau of Thomas Henry Mowbray Leader and Margaret Armstrong, son of Frances Henry Mowbray Leader and Agnes Broderick, son of William Leader and Dora McGillycuddy, son of Nicholas Philpott Leader and Margaret Nash. We have quite a number of paintings of Leaders and other documents. The oldest oil painting is of Andrew Nash, father of Margaret. He was the owner of Nashville which was renamed Rosnalee, the house was where my mother was born. My grandfather moved to Northern Ireland after most of his land had been compulsorily purchased by the Land Commission but he could not afford the upkeep of the house and it had to be sold for the stone it was built from.
Hi Andrew, I have a nice photo of Rosnalee with my great grandfather and William Leader (1813 -1861) both on horseback outside the house. Would you like to see it?
Regards, Howard.
Hello. I would love to see the photo, William Leader is my 3rd great granduncle
Thank you so much.
I would dearly love to see the portrait of Andrew Nash. Is it possible photograph it?
My great great grandmother was Winifred Leader married to Rev Edward Puxley and daughter of Henry Leader and Maria Winifred Miller.
Many thanks
Hello all,
My name is Frank Leader, from Boherbue, Co. Cork. I am the son of Leonard Leader, himself from a succession of Leonard Leaders – my brother Leonard is probably the seventh in this lineage. My grandfather ‘Leo’ was from Millstreet. The family home today (Rosnalea) is in Boherbue: my parents are GPs close to retirement (Dr Mary Joyce-Leader and Dr Leonard A. Leader) and the practice is attached to the home. My sister works with them in the same capacity and indeed my father’s parents worked there before (and with) them.
This information is likely of little use to anybody but all this to say – there are Leaders in the Millstreet area still and I may be able to help with any queries related to the line.
Regards,
Frank Leader
Hello! I was doing some research on my family history and was so pleased to find this website – and so many distant relatives! My family visited Mount Leader
I’m descended from Lionel Frederick Leader –> Eustace Lionel Leader –> Nicholas Lionel Leader (my grandpa!). My dad is the last one from our line to make it into Burke’s Peerage.
For anyone related to Lionel Frederick, or to his children Eustace/Robert/Marvella, I have some lovely photos that I found in my grandparents’ albums that I can share if you email me (annajleader@gmail.com).
Likewise, if you have any information (records, documents, photos) of this particular branch of the Leaders, I’d love to hear from you!